Team EMShow, Author at "Everyday MINDFULness" Show

046: Seeing the Good in Each Person AND Forgiveness

December 20, 2017 by Team EMShow Leave a Comment

What does it mean to truly forgive another person? And, do we all forgive in the same way? Are we all just doing the best we can with what we have been given? Host, Mike Domitrz, asks CAST members Rick Clemons, Dr. Jenn, and Barry Moniak to share their thoughts on how they use mindfulness to navigate through potentially uncomfortable situations when seeing the best in another person is more cloudy than clear.

The quote that Inspired this week’s show is “See with the heart so that what is invisible to the eye becomes visible as the living magic of reality. Seeing one drop of water can be seeing all water. See how things display their harmony and their chaos at the same time. We are never limited by beauty alone but we appreciate all sides of reality properly.” — from the book Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior, by Chögyam Trungpa.

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Key Takeaways:

[1:59] Mike reads the quote and asks Jenn how she sees the good inside of people.

[5:52] People are doing the best they can with what they have been given.

[8:30] How mindfulness can help us work through dilemmas at home or work.

[16:22] Practice forgiveness and healing or keep the toxic energy inside?

Rick Clemons is the Author of Frankly My Dear I’m Gay, Host of The Coming Out Lounge podcast, certified life coach, TEDx Speaker, world record holder, and a guy who’s helped 1000’s of people in over 50 countries across the globe come out of the closets of their lives to escape their bullshit, explore their fears, and elevate their f*cking self-expression.

RickClemons.com

Facebook.com/RickClemonsOfficial

Twitter.com/RickClemon

Barry Moniak brings insightful experience and profound discovery to his entertaining, interactive presentations. He inspires audiences to embrace a “befriend fear” mindset to build focused, energized, synergistic winning teams. Known affectionately as the “CEO Whisperer,” Barry gets leaders to not see people as they think they are, but rather as they truly are. He identifies operational strengths and weaknesses and creates a “befriend fear” modus operandi. This is the foundation for an extraordinary, winning, synergistic culture.

Endinmind.com

Facebook.com/endinmind

Twitter.com/BarryMoniak

Dr. Jenn, sociologist and sexologist, is a frequent speaker about sexual empowerment, healthy relationships, erotic play, and mindful sex. She has presented two TEDx Talks, is a writer on sex and relationships, and a recurring intimacy expert on the morning news. Dr. Jenn has over 1.3 million hits on her In the Den with Dr. Jenn YouTube video series and is an expert in the new documentary on masturbation, called Sticky: A (Self) Love Story.

DrJennsDen.com

Facebook.com/DrJennsDen

Twitter.com/DrJennsDen

The Sponsors of This Week’s Episode:

Zen Parenting Radio — A podcast to help you feel outstanding.

Yes Means Yes: An Introduction to Consent and Boundaries a book for young people by Christine Babinec.

Tweetables:

How are you at seeing the good in people, in any situation? @mindfulnessshow

Welcome:	Welcome to the Every Day Mindfulness Show. The off the cuff exploration of every day aha moments and life experiences. Join a cast of over 70 uniquely brilliant individuals. Each week Mike Domitrz and in an eclectic mix of cast members and special guests, will engage in mindful and lively conversations about everything from meditation to spirituality, to personal passions, to successes and failures to relationships. To the stuff that makes up the moments of our daily lives. Let’s get started with your host, author, speaker, provocateur and a bit of a goof ball, Mike Domitrz.
Mike Domitrz:	One of our amazing sponsors this week Zen Parenting Radio. Zen Parenting Radio podcast combines self-awareness and mindfulness with pop culture and humor to expand compassion for ourselves, each other and the world. You gonna hear discussion between a spiritual and emotional mom and a logical and practical dad, a podcast to help you feel outstanding. Join my friends Cathy and Todd at zenparentingradio.com.
	Hello. Yes, I’m your host Mike Domitrz and thrilled to be here with our cast from the Every Day Mindfulness Show. This week’s cast includes Alan Anderson, Barry Moniak and Holly Duckworth. You can learn all about them and check out our brilliant cast on our website at everydaymindfulnessshow.com. That’s everydaymindfulnessshow.com.
	We’re gonna dive right in to our very first question and our first question today … and I’m gonna start with you Holly if that’s okay. The first question is what is the biggest myth you hear surrounding mindfulness. Because for everyone listening today, today’s show is about Mindfulness Myth Busters. We gonna burst the myth surrounding mindfulness. So Holly, what is the biggest myth you hear surrounding mindfulness?
Holly Duckworth:	Well, mike thanks for having me on the show. Myths On mindfulness, one of the big ones that I hear from my friends and family and certainly my clients is, “Oh my gosh if I step into a mindfulness practice is going to take more time. I don’t have time to be mindful.” And in my mindfulness practice I actually pride my self on integrating it into the life that I already live. So yes, I do have a few moments in the morning that I do my meditation in that type of practice.
	But I think it’s also important for people to understand that mindfulness can be integrated into your life. If I’m driving down the road I might take a breath at a stop sign and just become fully present with my car at a stop sign. So that’s a big myth for me. It’s around you know, “Mindfulness takes more time and I think we need to look at ways we can sip our coffee or become fully present in a conversation to bring mindfulness into our everyday awareness.”
Mike Domitrz:	Holly, I love that. I love that idea that it’s throughout the day. So you sat at a stop sign while you’re living your everyday life. What do you mean by your being mindful for those listening, what are you doing in those moments whether is it 30 seconds, is it one minute, is it five minutes, how does that present itself?
Holly Duckworth:	Again just in my practice, mindfulness. I try to be as free flowing with it. So is fewer expectations that I can let off my mindfulness practice, the more present I can be in the present moment. So in that example in the car, we’ve all driven our cars and sometimes we sit at a stop light for five minutes. And in that five minutes I’m breathing, I’m present in my car, I might be listening to a calming piece of music, but I’m not texting, I’m not on my phone, I’m not looking at the GPS, I’m fully present at my car waiting being present in that stop sign.
	My mindfulness practice in the morning, I may sit on my meditation pillow for 30 minutes. But I think letting go some of the Myths of mindfulness are giving yourself permission to create a practice that works for you, whether that’s 30 seconds 5 times a day or 30 minutes twice a day.
Mike Domitrz:	Yeah, I love that. Alan, Barry, how do you find that you try to address that same issue with that time? Because, people do have this … I mean this is a major myth, I hear it all the time too, “I don’t have time for that.” Or some will … oh that’s a different myth I’ll go into later. Somebody will say to me, “Well if I do, then I’ll just go to sleep,” that’s a different myth, so we’ll address that a little bit later ’cause it falls into their time concept of, “I don’t have time for that but I do for a nap,” you know that kind of thing.” So do find that same thing and what are ways you address the myth of time?
Alan Anderson:	Well, yeah I agree with everything that Holly said. I think it‘s really important that one is able to switch from a formal mindfulness practice to applied mindfulness to applied mindfulness practice in every situation. So whether it’s in the car or having a sip of coffee or doing the dishes, to be able to say, “I’m going to extend mindfulness into all of these moments of my life.”
	So I think that’s really helpful. I try to do the very same thing for myself, so I think that’s really … it’s an essential key. However, I would just also add that in order to do that, to have that applied mindfulness. I think it’s so essential that you have some kind of formal understanding of it as the basis.
	Because I’ve been a musician in my lifetime, I like to think about what it’s like to practice music and then to play it. So kind of as Holly said, “If you’re able to let things go and let things be free.” I think it needs an essential core but at least understanding what the practice is and what’s it about. So I agree with Holly and I think that basis is the extraordinarily important as well.
Barry Moniak:	I would concur with that Allan, this is Barry. I love the analogy of the difference between practicing and playing. A couple two, three years ago mindfulness wasn’t a thing. Nobody knew about it, nobody was talking about it unless you’re going into some very old [inaudible 00:05:54] Tibetan-type of writings.
	Mindfulness is the state of being, it’s the state of awareness, it’s a state of consciousness, a state of presence. So now it’s being deemed this practice. The practice of mindfulness isn’t mindfulness in my perception. Mindfulness is the way you show up, the way you go about doing whatever it is you’re doing.
	The more you’re paying attention, the more present you are, the more mindful you are, anything that helps that happen, that’s a part of the practice that makes the playing more effective.
Mike Domitrz:	So is this a chicken before the egg thing, the egg before the chicken thing? Because you bring up an interesting discussion, which I’ve heard people have before. Barry, which is, “It’s a mindset, it’s a belief, it’s a way of life versus it’s a practice.” And I know there are some authors and experts who say, “No, it’s a practice.” And one requires the other but, which comes first? And so to get to that place Barry, doesn’t this go back to what Alan said, “You have to practice to get to the mindset?
Barry Moniak:	Yes, and I would take the belief part out of it. Whoever is throwing that into the mix is just muddying the waters. Mindfulness has nothing to do with belief, it has everything to do with cognizance. How aware are you of who you are, how you’re showing up, how you’re affecting or influencing people or the environment around you that is part of mindfulness.
	Any practice that helps that happen is essential. Just like you can’t teach someone a language without breaking down the alphabet, words and phrases, you can’t expect them to just jump in and be able to speak a foreign language if they haven’t been given the tools.
Mike Domitrz:	So you’re saying that it’s not a practice but you must practice?
Barry Moniak:	Yes. A good way of putting it, yes.
Mike Domitrz:	Okay awesome. So let’s stay with you Barry. What’s another major myth that you hear with mindfulness?
Barry Moniak:	Well, a lot of people seem to be associating mindfulness, this new thing with positivity and light, and being in the light and staying in the light. And it just kind of irks me because reality as we know it is made up of positive and negative light and dark. And yet people keep wanting to lean towards, “oh I only wanna … I don’t wanna listen to the news ’cause there’s so much negativity.” Excuse me it’s reality, it’s really happening, and if you’re not paying attention to what is really happening, then you’re not helping things move forward.
	So the mindful people again from my perspective are the ones looking at reality and going, “Okay, how can I best position myself and how can I best be of influence to help the larger picture move forward?”
Holly Duckworth:	Yeah, I would to that. It’s about a [beingness 00:08:54] versus a [doingness 00:08:57].
Barry Moniak:	Absolutely.
Holly Duckworth:	Am I going to be doing mindfulness, which is like doing a task, like doing an email or am I going to be more mindful in the way I express myself and quite frankly receive those people into my life in various exchanges we have during the day. So for me, I can really connect to what you’re saying about it, it’s both a practice and a living it because there’s many many times that I have to get back in the grace of, “Okay wait a second, I’m not fully present in this moment. I’m not mindful.” It’s not just the listening to a person but it’s being energetically in resonance with them.
Barry Moniak:	I remember a long long time ago, I came across this information about, “What state of mind are you in when you’re preparing food for other people?” That’s really interesting. So I got into it and then I experimented a little bit ’cause I love cooking for other people.
	And sometimes I put together an amazing meal but I was just developing to the news there, kind of thinking about whatever I was doing and it was what it was. Then I tried something with very simple ingredients, not a lot of spice or flavor, but I was just really concentrating on how much kind of loving, nurturing energy could I put into this food that other people were gonna partake of.
	And they went crazy for it, they thought it was the best thing they had ever eaten. And it didn’t have that doingness that you’re talking about, it didn’t have all those spices and ingredients. It had that different energy and people somehow were able to pick up on it.
Holly Duckworth:	I think that leans to another myth, which is mindfulness has to be heard.
Mike Domitrz:	Well, I think that that myth comes from … they believe it’s hard to quiet their mind. And that goes back to another myth of, “It has to be positivity or it has to be perfectly silence.” You know those type of a thing. There’s so many myths overlapping here. But I think that idea that it has to be heard is the quiet the mind myth.
Alan Anderson:	I think one thing that’s also kind of helpful to us it’s a lovely boon in a sense is that in order to … it’s not even a project to have to do these things just like Barry’s speaking about with the cooking or whatever. In truth, we have mindfulness, it’s happening constantly. It really doesn’t stop.
	I think the difficulty they have is understanding that we’re working with our own distraction that’s part of the mindfulness thing. Probably the most essential thing I think of mindfulness is the ability to come back when you do get distracted. It’s kind of like the dark and the light etc.
	But I think that in order for us to really appreciate mindfulness, we can realize that right now I’m looking at my window, and you know what? I’m listening what’s going on. My eyes are on the beautiful green leaves out there. All these things are going on, so we’re constantly there, we’re constantly mindful. It’s a matter knowing how to work that in some sense ’cause it’s already happening.
Barry Moniak:	Yeah, I think mindfulness has gotten associated with quiet, stillness, and again that’s something that I think is very beneficial for people to experience. But I don’t know that when you’re sitting in absolute silence and stillness that you’re necessarily being mindful, you’re just being still.
	When you get up and start moving, that’s when the [mindness 00:12:31] kicks in for me. So I look at that image of the Masai warrior standing on one foot all night long, paying attention to everything, so that if anything is gonna harm the village, they can let them know. That’s a very different state of meditation or stillness. There’s still a whole lot going on. So, that’s kind of my mental imagery icon of mindfulness. How much I’m I really aware of and are there things off my radar screen because I’m just not looking or paying attention.
Alan Anderson:	I like that image a lot, and I’d like to add another one. So I think images are really powerful teachers. They aren’t so intellectual, they really help us. So I think the Masai warrior was great. And one that’s used in the tradition I study in Shambhala Buddhism, is the image of the tiger. And this is ancient imagery. You can see it temples in Bhutan. It’s been there for thousands of years. A series called tiger [inaudible 00:13:33] dragon.
	And the tiger part is the mindfulness part. There you have the same kind of mindfulness as the tiger going through the jungle, feeling everything on its paws, feeling every breeze of air on it’s every hair, sense of sound, like that kind of presence kind of just very simple, not complicated but all together there with feet on the ground, eyes open, ears open. So very much connecting to senses too, which I think helps overcome the myth that mindfulness is some kind of intellectual exercise.
Mike Domitrz:	Well and I think that works really well with the myth that mindfulness is meditation, right? That they are one and the same. And so if I cannot think or if I cannot be quiet without thoughts coming in my head, I’m failing. And so they look at that and go, “Well, and I think that works really well with the myth that mindfulness is meditation, right?” That they are one and the same, and so if I cannot think or if I cannot be quiet without thoughts coming in my head, I’m failing, and so they look at that and go, “Well, no, that’s natural for thoughts to come to your head.”

Welcome:	Welcome to the Everyday Mindfulness Show. The off the cuff exploration of every day ‘ah-ha’ moments and life experiences. Join a cast of over 70 uniquely brilliant individuals. Each week Mike Domitrz and an eclectic mix of cast members and special guests. We’ll engage in mindful and lively conversations about everything from meditation to spirituality to personal passions to successes and failures to relationships to the stuff that makes up the moments of our daily lives. Let’s get started with your host, author, speaker, provocateur and a bit of a goofball, Mike Domitrz.
Mike Domitrz:	One of our sponsors this week is the Can I Kiss You? book. If you listen to this show, you know that is actually my book. Came out in 2016. Went number one for teen and young adult dating on Amazon new release. You can get that on Amazon. You can get that at DateSaveProject.org. The book is Can I Kiss You?
	Yes, I’m your host Mike Domitrz and thrilled to be here with our special, special interview today with LeAnn Thieman, a friend who I’ve known now for several years. We got to spend … What? We had a night where I was in their town. We got to hang out and talk. Just an incredible individual with an amazing personal life story. Leann, thank you so much for joining us here today for a one on one with Everyday Mindfulness Show.
LeAnn Thieman:	My joy to be with you. Thanks.
Mike Domitrz:	For everyone watching right now or listening because we do one on ones, you can also watch these on YouTube. Either way you can find all about LeAnn and our show at EverydayMindfulnessShow.com. We’ll have links to Leann and anything we’re discussing today. So know you can always go there.
	Leann, right now I really want to jump into everyone learning about you. I first learned about you through the National Speaker’s Association, and you’re personal story. We’ll back up to that in a moment. I’d like to start with what do you do today because that was years ago, as people learn about your personal story that ignited it all. What are you doing today?
LeAnn Thieman:	Today, I work full-time as a speaker and author. I have been lucky to right 14 of the Chicken Soup for the Soul books. So I do a lot of writing. Three of them for nurses. I speak full-time to healthcare, and I’ve developed a year long program now called Self Care for Healthcare and speak in rightful time to healthcare givers care for themselves while they’re taking care of everybody else.
Mike Domitrz:	Very cool. You specifically teach them how to apply mindfulness to their lives to do that, is that correct?
LeAnn Thieman:	Absolutely.
Mike Domitrz:	Yes. So we’re going to get to that a little bit later. Now, we’re going to jump back. For everyone who is never met LeAnn, your personal story is amazing. Can you take us back to that story and let our viewers and listeners learn about that journey.
LeAnn Thieman:	Well, yes. All of this began actually at the end of the Vietnam War in 1975. I was a volunteer for an organization called Friends of Children of Vietnam. I agreed to go to escort six babies back to their assigned adoptive homes. But by the time I got there bombs were dropping outside the city. President Ford had okayed Operation Baby Lift, and I got accidentally thrown in to literally helping to put hundreds of babies into open cardboard boxes, strapping them in a cargo jet, and flying them to the United States and eventually to their homes. In the midst of that chaos, the little boy we thought we would adopt in two or three years picked me. I came back with our son.
Mike Domitrz:	Which is awesome. So now how old is your son today?
LeAnn Thieman:	Oh, my baby is only 42.
Mike Domitrz:	There you go. So 42. For anybody, if you ever get a chance to see Leann speak, you’re going to want to do it because you have the images. You have the pictures. I think people hear that ‘babies in cardboard boxes’ they don’t really understand. We literally mean a plane full of cardboard boxes with babies sitting in them.
LeAnn Thieman:	Right.
Mike Domitrz:	You don’t have what we have today. They weren’t strapped in seat belts. It was get them out of here so we can get them to a safer situation.
LeAnn Thieman:	That’s exactly right.
Mike Domitrz:	You yourself were in that danger. So let’s go back to that time. How did you mentally deal with that? How did you handle that moment of stress because you had stress before you left. You found out right before leaving the situation had changed as far as the severity of it, if I remember right.
LeAnn Thieman:	That’s correct.
Mike Domitrz:	So you had to make the decision to still go when a lot of people would have said, “I’m out.” In fact, people said to you, “What are you doing, under all these circumstances, still going?”
LeAnn Thieman:	Right, especially since I had a wonderful husband and two little girls that were two and four years old. It’s important for people to hear, I never would have left them if I wasn’t sure I would be back. I realized that the bombs were falling outside the city, and the only way I can explain it, Mike, is you know that part of my story. I was scared to death and a part of my mindfulness is mind, body, and spirit. I turned to my spirit, my higher power, and after the Easter service, I just knelt sobbing. Actually then begging God for a sign I didn’t have to go. But instead I was just filled with this absolute courage and confidence and certainty. I’d go. I’d be back. I’d be safe. I was only expected to be gone about 10 days, and I knew I’d be back fine. So I left completely filled with confidence.
Mike Domitrz:	There’s something really vulnerable there is that you did get to a place where you were sobbing, thinking, “I’m not going.” Like, God just cleared me of the ability … I don’t need to go. We’re good. It was after the clearing that you were like, “Now, I know I need to go.” So that’s so unique that you allowed yourself to say, “No, I’m not going to do it.” And that brought forth the safety and the confidence and the comfort. I think that’s really powerful to think about. What if everyone said, “I don’t know if I should go.” Well, what would you say to yourself if you just said, “I’m not going to do this.” Where would you be at? What clearing could that bring you? That’s so powerful.
	So then you get over there, and it is happening, right? It’s happening around you. Was there ever a deterrent once you were there in that confidence? Was there ever a moment where you’re like, “Oh, no. This could be worse than I realize. I might not get back.”
LeAnn Thieman:	Well, Mike, I’m not sure you even know that part of my story. It was absolutely. I went completely filled with confidence. We’re expected to be on the first plane load out of the Vietnam. Our organization was number one on the list. We got bumped from the first place position and when I learned that, I argued and I fought and I nagged that we should be out first place position. We needed to go out first. We didn’t get that position. So instead we just loaded 20 babies into the bus to take them to the airport to put them on an Australian airline because we also had a chapter in Australia. As I stood on that runway, I watched that first plane, a load of orphans, crash after take off. When that plane crashed, so did I. I lost complete faith, complete confidence. I thought I made a terrible, terrible decision. I thought I may never get out of there. Indeed, my faith and my courage and everything was shaken.
Mike Domitrz:	Well, yeah. That’s understandable. So you had 20 babies. You see the plane crash. For everyone listening right now, I think it’s really important for perspective. I mean, everyone of those lives to you is an invaluable life is lost. How many did you save after that? What was the number?
LeAnn Thieman:	Actually half of them survived.
Mike Domitrz:	So half of them survived.
LeAnn Thieman:	So, just to be clear, we took the babies to the Australian airliner and it wasn’t our plane or our babies on that plane. There were 400 …
Mike Domitrz:	Ah.
LeAnn Thieman:	There were 400 other volunteers and babies from another organization. Of those 400, 200 survived.
Mike Domitrz:	Okay.
LeAnn Thieman:	Not my plane or my babies.
Mike Domitrz:	I gotcha. But even so, you knew that could have been you. That could have been yours. But even so, it was just human life that you just saw lost. Even if it had nothing to do with the babies, its human life. How many babies? Was it 6,000 that you helped get out, the organization helped you get out?
LeAnn Thieman:	All together. All the organizations and actually there turned out to be about five or six organizations and 3,000 babies were rescued from Vietnam by the end of the war.
Mike Domitrz:	Yeah. So it’s amazing to think of that. Imagine if that moment when the plane crash happened, and you think, “Okay. I need to get home safely.” Everyone bailed, let’s just say that. 3,000 lives would have been left behind because of the fear of what happened to those 200. You all had the courage to keep moving. What was it that did it for you to take the next step forward? At that moment when you watched that plane crash, I know it might not have been right away. Maybe it was a day later, but what was the moment where you said, “No, we have to keep going.”
LeAnn Thieman:	Well, actually I asked if I could leave because I was so afraid. I thought I’d never see my family again. When they tell you there’s no plane out except on an Operation Baby Lift plane, that sort of reframes your thinking. Then you walk into that building where there’s a hundred bawling babies. We all need you. So we just through ourselves right back in to the work again. In the meantime, a reporter called all the way from Iowa, across the ocean, from my husband. They asked if I had a message for him. When I could tell him I wasn’t on the plane and that I was safe and he knew I’d be okay and I was coming home, that lifted my heart again and the squalling babies through us right back into the work again. I had to go back to my prayer. I figured the God that sent me there would see me through it. So I remembered that. That I was there on purpose and I was on an assignment bigger than me. The good Lord would get me through it, and indeed he did. And gave me a son because three days after the plane crashed, there’s my boy.
Mike Domitrz:	Right. That is so powerful. Obviously your son you have shared this discussion over the years. How does he … He was too young at the time, I assume, to remember anything. He was an infant. How does this impact him? How is he said he looks at his life or at the family situation knowing everything that took place to get him free?
LeAnn Thieman:	You know, the interesting thing is Mitchell’s first t-shirt said ‘All American Boy’. That’s exactly how he was always viewed himself. He’s not very attached to Vietnam. We took him to a couple of camps to learn about that, and he said, “Nah, it’s okay. Doesn’t relate to me a bit.” So he’s just quite content. He’s never wanted to explore that very much. I took him to a reunion of the 25th anniversary of all these other grown ups and kids that I brought out. Wasn’t that totally cool? He said it was great to meet them. He did feel sort of a unique connection to them then. But he’s kind of gone along his whole life …
	You know, Mike, we sort of raised our kids a little differently. My husband happened to be a psychologist, and he said, “We’re not going to set Mitchell apart as being different. You’re German. I’m part French. He’s part Vietnamese. We’re all the same family, and it was all the same.” So we never really emphasized that a lot.
Mike Domitrz:	Right. You raised him to be himself.

Welcome:	Welcome to the Everyday Mindfulness Show, the off the cuff exploration of everyday aha moments and life experiences. Join a cast of over 70 uniquely brilliant individuals. Each week Mike Domitrz and an eclectic mix of cast members and special guests will engage in mindful and lively conversations about everything, from meditation to spirituality, to personal passions, to successes and failures, to relationships, to the stuff that makes up the moments of our daily lives. Let’s get started with your host, author, speaker, provocateur and a bit of a goofball, Mike Domitrz.
Mike Domitrz:	One of our sponsors this week is the Can I Kiss You Program. That’s correct. That’s a live training presentation that we do in schools. From middle schools, high schools, universities, military installations, and conferences around the world. To learn more, go to datesafeproject.org, or call us at 800-329-9390.
	Hi, I’m your host Mike Domitrz, and thrilled to be here with our cast from the Everyday Mindfulness Show. This week’s cast includes Barry Moniack, Karli Johnson, and Dr. Jenn. You can learn all about and check out our brilliant cast at everydaymindfulnessshow.com. Once again, that’s everdaymindfulnessshow.com. We’re going to get right into it because this week we’re talking about sex and mindfulness.
	Our first question is, with that discussion, with that theme of sex and mindfulness, some people will immediately start thinking, “Ooh, that’s provocative.” Maybe not that weird way I just said it, but they’ll be thinking something like that. How does that-
Barry Moniack:	Thanks for that clarification, Mike.
Mike Domitrz:	Yes. How does that reaction, that provocative reaction, how does that relate to the mindfulness surrounding sex? So Jenn, we’ll start with you. How does that relate to that?
Dr. Jenn:	Yeah. Well I think an aspect of mindfulness is being in a state of continual, gentle curiosity. I think even asking yourself then, “Well, why is that my response? First of all, what does provocative even mean like or feel like to me? And, why is that my response around sex?” You know, a sociologist by education, so, so much of what we learn about sex is what we learn culturally. In our society, and from our family, and our religion. So, to be in a state of gentle curiosity of like, “Well where did I learn that? What did I learn? What does that mean to me? And, what does that even feel like to me specifically?”
Mike Domitrz:	And so, in that exploration of what does that mean to you, you’re specifically saying that provocative concept.
Dr. Jenn:	Yeah.
Mike Domitrz:	What do you think is what people typically think it means?
Dr. Jenn:	I don’t know. It’s naughty. It’s exciting. Maybe dirty, but dirty in a good way.
Mike Domitrz:	Well let’s pause, let’s pause there because I think that’s an important discussion. Dirty in a good way in your mindset, because you come from this field of discussing this, but for some people it’s dirty in a dirty aspect in their mind as in wrongful dirt.
Dr. Jenn:	For sure.
Mike Domitrz:	Dirt’s negative, we don’t want dirt in our life, and so they think of dirty in that way.
Dr. Jenn:	Right. I think even how you say provocative, I was going off of your tone of voice, which is kind of like, “Oh, this is titillating, this is exciting.” Versus, “Oh, that’s provocative.” Which would be very judgemental and shameful, which is what we have unfortunately a ton of around sexuality, a lot of heaviness, and shame, and guilt and stigma. In that perspective on looking at the word provocative, that’s a large part of what I do in my work is helping folks look at where did they pick up shame and guilt around sexuality and their own sexual expression, how is that getting in the way of them being able to like themselves and connect with others deeply in a way they want to, and literally where does that shame show up in their bodies? How did they embody it? Where did they feel it?
	Then where can they learn over time to sit with the discomfort of that shame and guilt, and with mindfulness skills, and staying present, and not judging themselves, and having compassion, and then have the courage to move through it and now be able to make other choices of connecting deeply with themselves and connecting more deeply with others. Yeah, I mean there’s a lot of directions to go with that word, provocative.
Mike Domitrz:	Barry and Karli, do you think that that idea of what Jenn is speaking of there is focused on or needs the concept of to love yourself? To love yourself is to love your body, the sexual urges, needs, wants, feelings, expressions you have, and/or don’t have, because not everybody does. To be able to love yourself that way.
Barry Moniack:	I think that gets into, yes I agree, and it gets into an extremely abstract concept. We could line up hundreds of people and ask them what does it mean to love yourself and we’re probably going to get hundreds of different answers. In terms of the mindfulness, it seems like sex and anything having to do with sex, sexuality, sexual orientation, we’ve reduced it down to physicality. Yet interesting when they’ve done extensive research on sex in the human experience, they say the brain is the most erogenous organ of the body.
	Well the brain’s what’s connected to the mind, so when I think of mindfulness and sex, how present are we? Whether it’s with ourselves or someone else that we’re having the experience with, what kind of an attention, awareness, sensitivity … I liked your term, Jenn, of gentle curiosity, but I would say that could go to a fierce curiosity in terms of sex, but are you still paying attention? Are you aware of what’s going on with you and the other person? I think people who have more mindful sex, it’s way more enjoyable, but I don’t know that the average person is aware of what that is.
Karli Johnson:	Well and I think, I know I’ve struggled personally engaging in sexual activity, of where I was thinking of, “Well what is my partner thinking of me? Of my body? Of what I’m doing?” That right there is not being mindful of the moment. That is being judgmental of yourself, and I think that is a problem that a lot of people deal with.
Mike Domitrz:	Well I think Karli, you bring up something really great there, which is what you just shared is what most people have at different moments. I don’t know that you weren’t mindful, it’s that you were mindful of what you were feeling at that moment. The question is, did you let it control or did you say, “I’m going to let that go”? So now my mindfulness releases that thought. Because I don’t think to have those natural thoughts is not being mindful, I think it’s how we recognize them. Are we mindful of them? Are we able to then move forward with them? Because almost anybody I’ve ever known, if you have these honest conversations, versus the façade of what the media puts out there is we are sitting there thinking, “How do I look? Does my partner think I’m sexy right now? What do they think of …” and you’ll think of specific body parts from my stomach, to my rear end, to my genitalia, to all these different areas.
	The irony is very few people, very few when you talk about sex, say, “I wonder what my partner thinks of my smile?” Which is what they’re actually seeing more of. Once you start the intimacy you see more face. Now depending on the sexual act you’re in, that’s not necessarily true at all, but in the making out part, in the kissing part, that beginning, that’s what you’re seeing more of. Now as the sexual acts obviously evolve or whatever you choose to engage it, that changes. Even in a sexual act, they’re not looking at the genitalia. They’re engaged in it. You’re not studying it while you’re engaging with it, you’re engaged in an act. It’s such a weird thing that we do there.
Barry Moniack:	If we bring the mindfulness aspect into it, I don’t think there’s anything bad, wrong, or stupid, Karli, with wondering what my partner might be thinking or experiencing. Most people I found just leave it there. “I wonder …” And then I go into some kind of self analysis or self judgment. The mindfulness aspect would be to qualify those thoughts or feelings. “Hmm, I wonder why I thought that? Do I have something that needs to be addressed?” To be able to ask my partner, “Hey, I have this thought or feeling, what is that like for you?” If the partnership isn’t able to handle that level of intimacy, well that’s telling in and of itself, but if I find out what the other person really thinks, “Oh, I just used mindfulness to get to a better place.”
Dr. Jenn:	Yeah, and I want to build on this. I mean I think those type of conversations are fantastic, when you can develop relationships and intimate relationships able to have those conversations. In the moment, I think of mindfulness as where we’re choosing to put our focus. Like everybody said, the awareness that those thoughts come up like, “Oh, why do my breasts look like this? Oh, I don’t like how my thighs look. Oh, am I performing well enough? Oh, is my partner happy with what I’m doing?” Or, “I’m making the grocery list in my head because I’ve got a million other things I could be doing.” All of these other things that distract us from body image, to just other life priorities, to performance concerns, the recognition that those thoughts come up is, as everybody said, these part of mindfulness.
	One thing that I like to encourage folks to do is then just recognize, okay, so where are you focusing your attention? So you noticed that thought pops up, noticed it comes up, acknowledge it, even tell people to thank that thought sometimes, “Oh thank you, I understand that you’re just trying to protect me.” Or whatever.” Then I’m going to choose to focus my attention back on this moment, and specifically on anchoring ourselves to the five senses in the moment. Like what do the sheets feel like? What does my partner feel like and smell like? What’s their skin feel like on my lips? What am I seeing otherwise? Just using our five senses, choosing consciously to bring our focus and our attention back in the moment that way.
	Then our distracting thoughts pop up, we acknowledge those thoughts, you’re like, “Oh yeah. No, that’s my body image again. I acknowledge you, and I thank you, and I choose to bring myself back to this moment again.” Then I think, like Barry was saying, that afterwards having that conversation with the partner, so like, “Hey, this is what’s going on in my head. What’s going on in your head? Can we talk about this because my insecurities are totally popping up, and this is what’s going on, and I just want to be vulnerable and authentic with you and find out what’s going on from your side.”
Mike Domitrz:	Well and maybe being able to talk to your partner before sex, that can we be playful with our mindfulness?
Barry Moniack:	[crosstalk 00:11:46].
Mike Domitrz:	Yeah, right. Let’s say that in my mind I’m thinking with my partner … common one for men is their penis size, or the girth, whatever it is in their mind, that is a common one that comes up, right? If you’re being playful and you identify as a male, and you say to your partner, “If that pops into my head I might say something like, ‘Tell me what you think about my dick.’ ” That kind of thing. Would you have fun with that and be like, “I love your dick”? That kind of thing, or would that be a total turn off for you? Which would it be? If they’re like, “If that would help you, I’ll do that for you.” Now you’re making it playful and you’re making it exciting, right?
	Or for somebody to say, “Well Mike, you’re a guy. What if it was a woman?” What if she’s like, “Well I wonder what my vulva’s like?” Or, “What is my genitalia like?” If you just said to me, “Hey, do you love my vulva.” And say, “Well what words do you like?” Because if I’m going to say to you, “I love how wet, I love the taste.” Some people are going to be like, “Oh god, you just made it worse.” So that’s going to be the worst thing. Some people hate the word moist, I don’t get that. I don’t, but I know some people hate the word moist. If you’re like, “Oh it’s so moist.” They’ll be like, “Oh no, you killed it.” To be able to have that playful conversation is so mindful and yet fun.
Barry Moniack:	Yes.
Dr. Jenn:	Yeah, absolutely.
Barry Moniack:	Notice how much of our dialogue is about physicality, the five senses and the communication. Mindfulness has to do with the mind, which is not associated to the body. It connects to the brain but it can connect to other aspects of us as well. So where in those interactions can we be more sensitive to, aware of, the energy, the energetic dynamics? What do I experience energetically when we kiss? When we touch? When we have sex? Now we’re getting more into what I would think is the mindful aspect of sex, is bringing back that heightened attention, awareness to the act.
Dr. Jenn:	Well actually I would counter that a little bit in that I think of mindfulness as just presence with anything that shows up in the moment.
Barry Moniack:	True.
Dr. Jenn:	Mindfulness being awareness in the moment with our thoughts, our beliefs, our interpretations, the meanings, any emotions we have, and our bodily sensations. Mindfulness is very anchored in the moment, in the physical body that we’re in and all of the manifestations of how that shows up, and not judging what shows up and accepting what shows up. I think if we’re focusing on the energy of the moment, well I think for some folks they would have to have … That may be an advanced to focus on if they haven’t sat with the mindfulness of all of the regular crap of what it is to be a human. You know, in all of our beauty and our messiness, of everything that’s showing up in every moment of every bodily sensation and thought, and things, and so much of that shows up in the sexual component.
	I think of mindfulness as actually much more mundane of the acceptance of what is in the moment. When it comes to sexual topics, and body image, and cultural learnings, and gender roles, and all of these things, it’s so laden with so much that gets in the way of just being able to be present with the beautiful energy of connection in the moment. I think of, yeah, mindfulness as being present with all of that and accepting it, and then choosing to move forward.
Barry Moniack:	Well it depends an awful lot on how a person is wired. There’s this assumption that everybody is more physically oriented than energetically. I’m not wired that way, so I experience the energetic side much more profoundly than the physical side. I experience both, but the energetic one is much stronger and so I have found there’s a whole lot of people that experience that, but they either didn’t feel comfortable enough to talk to people about it, or they didn’t have a language to talk about it with, so they just thought maybe they were odd or weird. That’s where I look at it and go, okay, the mind is associated to the energetic body, the brain is associated to the physical body, there is a connection and the more those two talk, the better off we are. But again it goes back to how are you wired? If I’m going to interact with you on any level, but especially sexually, I need to know your wiring so that I know who I’m interacting with.
Mike Domitrz:	Well and a lot of-
Karli Johnson:	To go off-

Welcome:	Welcome to the Everyday Mindfulness Show. The off-the-cuff exploration of every day “aha” moments and life experiences. Join a cast of over 70 uniquely brilliant individuals. Each week, Mike Domitrz, and an eclectic mix of cast members, and special guests will engage in mindful and lively conversations about everything from meditation, to spirituality, to personal passions, to successes and failures, to relationships, to the stuff that makes up the moments of our daily lives. Let’s get started with your host, author, speaker, provocateur, and a bit of a goof ball, Mike Domitrz.
Mike Domitrz:	One of our sponsors this week is the, “Help! My Teen Is Dating” DVD, and you can watch it on streaming online video. This is for parents, for educators who work with children, teenagers, pre-teens, really giving you the skill set to have those conversations that can be so awkward and so uncomfortable. Find it at datesafeproject.org.
	Hello, I’m your host Mike Domitrz. I’m thrilled to be here with our cast from the Everyday Mindfulness Show. This week’s cast includes Sean Douglas, Lisa Baker-King, Rick Clemons, and Barry Moniak. This is a unique one because this is a return episode. We had this conversation with the same group a little while back, and we just felt like we got to keep going. We just getting into it. This is a continuation one.
	Now, if you’re wondering about that brilliant cast that I just talked about, you can go to everydaymindfulnessshow.com to find out all about each one of those. Let’s get into it because today’s show’s about nudity. That’s right. Yes. Getting nude. Being nude. How society treats nude, all those kind of fun things. It’s just fun to say, “Nude.”
	All right, so we’re going to get into this, dive into this, how society treats it. Are there biases? Are genders treated differently? Could even between sexual orientation, can there be different treatments or identities? We’re going to dive in all the way here. There’s actually a timely situation occurring in the news, so, if you’re listening to this, it might have happened six months ago, so I’ll reference it so you can look back and Google. That is that, “Britain’s Got Talent” had an episode with one of their judges, Amanda Holden, wearing an outfit that people just flipped out, that was showing too much skin, pretty much saying it was sexualizing a family show by showing the skin that it was showing.
	That gets us right off into the concept of, should you be able to show skin and have your body exposed having, by t.v. standards, what’s covered? For instance, nipples need to be covered by t.v. standards for public t.v. Though all those areas were covered, is that sexualizing because you wear an outfit like that, or is that somebody being fully expressive of their body and being comfortable with their body? Lisa, what do you think?
Lisa Baker-King:	I looked at those pictures and, first of all, she looked amazing. I thought she looked absolutely beautiful. It just continues to amaze me that we put these labels on the body. Saying she looked like a stripper, and I’m doing air quotes, just blows my mind because what does that even mean? She looked amazing. Her back was showing, the top of her buttocks, some cleavage, but she looked absolutely fantastic. Nothing was inappropriate in my view. It just made me think about … I’m a fan of “America’s Got Talent” and “Britain’s Got Talent.” I love those kind of shows. I love seeing what people can do.
	Last year on “America’s Got Talent” Nick Cannon … I don’t know if you guys are familiar with Nick Cannon, but he wears some wild outfits. I mean, they’re pretty cool, sparkly shoes and these suits that are somewhat tight. They look good on him. He wears high-water pants to show off his funky socks, but nobody puts a label on that. Nobody says, “Hey, he looks like …” I don’t know, “A pimp.” You never hear that, so it’s amazing to me that we put these labels on women.
	At the same time, as a society, for example, if we’re going out as adults to some dress event, as a lady when you go look for a dress, less is more. They’re showing skin, so when you do wear that, it’s kind of one of those, “You’re darned if you do, and you’re darned if you don’t.”
Mike Domitrz:	Let’s say, the counter argument to this is the parents … And this is what we’re seeing happen, is a parent saying, “Okay. This is a family show,” which “America’s Got Talent”, “Britain’s Got Talent,” would actually agree with. They agree with that part that our demographic is the family audience, and, so, my child watching that. They’re seeing this sexualized outfit. Now, I know my own personal reaction to that is to say, “Well, then, you explain to your child that the only thing that makes that sexual is the person who chooses to interpret that and treat that in a sexual way. That’s the human body.” What if the child says, “Mom or dad, I’d like to dress like that to school tomorrow?”
Sean Douglas:	I’ve got a ten-year old daughter and a three-year old daughter. If they’re going to dress like that to school, I would be against that only because of the setting that … The school’s supposed to be a “professional.” I know there’s bullying and whatever, but in that setting … I don’t know. You’re there to learn. You’re not there to judge outfits. Any time that somebody judges anything, I believe it’s just absolutely wrong. If somebody wants to wear something, wear something, but it’s when people take it to another level and interpret it, like you said, interpret it a different way that it become problems. That’s why we have school uniforms and everything. I wouldn’t let my daughter wear it only because my belief is that school is not a setting for that. It’s a professional environment. You wear things that show good taste and save it for, I don’t know, a party somewhere. I don’t know. That’s just my opinion.
Barry Moniak:	My daughters ... This is Barry. My daughters are a bit older than yours, Sean. I would never tell them what they can or can’t do, but I would have extensive conversation with them about possible ramifications of what they do. We may think as adults that school is a professional setting for education. The kids in school, and even if we remember back, it’s a fashion palooza. Everybody’s trying to be cool, and in, and make their statements. Those would be the kinds of questions I would want to be asking is, “If people respond or react favorably, how is that going to make you feel?” “If people respond unfavorably, how’s that going to make you feel, and are you ready for that because I can’t help you with that once it happens, so let’s just think this through.”
Mike Domitrz:	Well, Barry, I like the clarification you gave there because the first language you used was, “You need to be aware of the ramifications.” I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way, but I could hear a lot of people listening going, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Is he blaming them for how people are going to treat them?” Then, you came back around nicely and said, “Hey, if you get this reaction, how will you feel about that? How will you feel about this reaction?””
	I think versus ramifications more than … It’s more reactions. Are you ready for the reactions? Are you comfortable with the reactions because they’re not your fault, but you’ll live with that in society.
Barry Moniak:	Well, if some of those people judge you to the point where they unfriend you, that’s a ramification. That’s something that you need to be ready for. You could alienate people that you thought were in your camp.
Mike Domitrz:	Yes, but I don’t think the outfit or you didn’t cause it. The person made that choice. That’s, I think, a difference in, that person had a reaction versus … A ramification means, “I made this choice” … I mean, for me. Maybe I’m misinterpreting, but, for me, when you think of “ramification,” “I made this choice, and this occurred because of my choice.” In other words, my choice was the fault of it. In this case, I think it’s the reaction of the person that’s judging you that’s the fault of that, not the person wearing the outfit.
Barry Moniak:	I would agree with you if we were in an altruistic society, but we’re not, so every time you walk out the door, people are judging you even if you’re smack-dab normal, they’re still judging you. You do anything abnormal, and now you’re just upping the ante of what that reaction could be. Yeah. I still stick by “ramification” that people … And that’s the whole thing about everyday mindfulness. Are we aware of how we’re showing up and what that is setting into motion that people could respond or react to? That’s my choice. That’s what I’m setting into motion, so that’s where my accountability and responsibility lies. Now, I have to deal with, “Okay, what’s everybody else’s two cents about me?”
Mike Domitrz:	Under that, for your interpretation of “mindfulness” is that when you put an outfit on, you’re responsible for the … How other people react to that because you chose to put it on?
Barry Moniak:	Yeah. If I’m dressing for a client meeting, a job meeting, something, and I underdress, overdress, I’m the one who made those choices and decisions, so it’s up to me to be mindful, “What is it exactly that I’m trying to accomplish?” If I go to a friend’s party where everybody’s hanging around having fun, drinking, and I’m in a three-piece suit, I did not hit the target. I’m going to be out of place, and I could make other people feel uncomfortable, like “What’s this guy’s deal?”
Mike Domitrz:	Here’s the danger I hear in this moment, and that is this. I could be mindful that if I wear this, it could draw this kind of attention. I could be mindful of that when I put that on. What I don’t want that to become is for me to be mindful of it, and then say that it’s my fault if things happen based on that because, for example, we live in a very sexually violent world, so a lot of people listening to this have experienced that where they chose to wear something knowing that that outfit might get attention, but that they knew that, “I have the right to wear that.” Then, somebody did some horrific harm on them and acted sexual violence on them, and people go, “Well, you should have bene mindful that when you put that on that that’s what you set in motion.” It becomes very quickly a victim-blaming situation instead of saying, “Look, you have the right to wear that.”
	You could be mindful that people might not react the way you would hope. Like you said with your daughter, “What would be your reaction if somebody treats you this way or that way?” In no way does that mean you set into motion because you wore that outfit, somebody else’s actions, in no way. At that point, they made a choice. You didn’t set it action.
Barry Moniak:	You’re absolutely right, Mike. There’s courts that have ruled other than that where a woman was violently raped and, yet, they said it had to do with the way she was dressed, or the way she walked, or acted, or behaved, or things she said. That’s the societal structure that we live in. I think it’s messed up, but that’s kind of where things are at. It’s like a black person walking out the door in the morning. They’ve got to be aware that they’re black. If they’re walking into an all-white community, there could be ramifications because the people in that community may or may not understand who they are or what’s going on.
Mike Domitrz:	But, we would never say … I don’t want to speak for you, but I don’t think anybody on here would ever say, “It was the black person’s choice to walk into the neighborhood that set forth the violence against the black person.”
Barry Moniak:	Exactly. No, I’m not suggesting that at all. I’m just saying, “What are those repercussions or ramifications that could happen, and are we aware of that, and are we taking any kind of precautionary, preventative measures-“
Mike Domitrz:	All right. There’s where I’m going to be the rebel. I’m going to be the rebel right there because the idea of mindfulness is to not let the world control our decision making. I don’t mean “rebel” as in “rebel against everyone,” the counter-voice here, I guess, on this one. I think a lot of people hear that and think, “Well, I should really pause before I wear that,” and they stop being themselves because they trap themselves in the ramification of the world that’s around them based on, “Hey, there’s cases where they blame the victim, so I’m not going to wear that one anymore.”
	That’s the opposite of what we want to do to shift culture. What about the person who says, “I’m going to have the courage to walk out there. Where it’s legal, I’m going to walk out there naked,” or, “I’m going to walk out there topless.” I’m going to go against culture because I want to set forth that this should start to be the norm, and I know people will look at me, but I’m not going to let those ramifications stop me from being me.” What about that who’s trying to shift our world into a place of healthier understanding of the body and nudity?
Barry Moniak:	I agree with all of that whole-heartedly. We were talking about girls going to school, no, I’m not going to say, “Hey, let’s support your rebel flag.” I’m going to talk to them about what’s going to happen next, and what’s it going to be like tomorrow and next week because you’re going to have to exist in that environment for an extended period of time. I think we’re going down this rabbit hole, which we tend to go of social condemnation, and judgment, and confirmation bias, and all this.
	My question is, we’re talking about nudity, and we’ve gotten into all this bias, who has experience with nudity itself, and what was that experience like because people who have never been nude around other people, I really don’t care what they have to say about it. It means nothing to me.
Mike Domitrz:	Okay, so here’s why I would say, “I think it does matter.” If all these bias impact whether somebody’s willing to be nude, it has huge impact on nudity. It has a massive impact. As I travel the world, and I meet with people who have been in dangerous and/or judgmental situations based on clothing, and nudity, or skin exposure, and the impact it’s had on them to not be naked because of all these biases, whether it be gender bias, sexual orientation bias. I don’t want it to be a debate here between Barry and I. I want to hear the others jump in.
	I think all of that leads to people not being willing to be nude, so I don’t want them to be listening thinking, “Well, if you haven’t been nude, your voice doesn’t really count on here.” If you haven’t been around people that have gone into a nudist environment, it doesn’t really count because their fears are what we need to discuss, so that those biases have an impact.
Barry Moniak:	Are we discussing their fears, or are we discussing the experience of nudity?
Mike Domitrz:	Both.
Barry Moniak:	Because those who have fears have no other information other than their bias, we’re beating our heads against the wall. We’re not going to change their mind.
Lisa Baker-King:	I think we’re talking about both.
Sean Douglas:	You were talking about the t-shirts and about the clothes, and I just kept thinking … I’m like, “Man, if we start doing everything that you guys are talking about … If we start doing that, we start living in somebody else’s own thinking of …” For example, if the clothes and the dress … If you have to … I do the same thing. I’m like, “Hey, do you realize what may happen? There’s a possibility of … I’m not saying that it will, but there‘s a possibility, and all this stuff.” If we always put on a certain set of clothes, or we always think about when we go to the beach, we’re putting swim suits, and whatever, and what we’re going to do. If we start questioning, “Well, what’s somebody going to think about us,” we start living in somebody else’s reality of what they think about us rather than our own reality. That’s a horrible way to live.
	A lot of people live their life that way. They live their life according to somebody else’s think of us, and it becomes our reality. I want people to not do that. Don’t live in somebody else’s reality. Don’t live in somebody else’s thinking of us, and how we should think, or what we should feel about us.
	I went through an experience just this past month. I don’t know how I’ve changed from it. Maybe I’m a little more confident. I don’t know. I was in a play, and I’ve never been in a play before. I was cast as the lead male character, Brick, in “Cat On A Hot Tin Roof.” The director really made everyone get out of their comfort zones or whatever for the role. For the first like 20 minutes of the play, I’m chest naked in a towel on stage in front of like 100 people. I’ve gone to the beach, and I’ve gone swimming, and you don’t think about it because it’s an activity that you do, but I’m on stage. I’ve never been in a play, and I’m chest naked in a towel.
	I’m like freaking out the first time I walked on stage and saw the lights. I’m like, “Oh, my God!” I heard people laughing. Instantly … I’m a resilience trainer. I teach mindfulness. I instantly went, “Oh, my God. Are they laughing at me?” I wanted to verbally slap myself. I’m like, “Shut up. They’re not laughing. Just do your thing.” I had that moment of, “Oh, my God. They’re judging me, and they’re laughing at me. Am I underweight or overweight? What are they thinking?” I had this momentary lapse of judgment where I’m like, “What the hell are you doing?” I know better than to listen to other people, and I went about my business.
	I wonder how many other people do that when they walk into a room, and they just stand there, you know what I mean? The record stops-
Lisa Baker-King:	And they don’t do that mental slap to themselves.

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